Sylvana SilverWitch: Describe yourself. Who and what is Carol Leigh, or the Scarlot Harlot?
Scarlot Harlot: I am a sex worker, life artist, bisexual, feminist, anarchist, pagan, humanist, poet, performance artist, video artist - and of course I don't like labels.
SS: What is a whore, and what is a sacred whore? Is there any difference?
SH: It's a continuum, I think, and then it also depends on whose perspective. Life is sacred, whoring is sacred, so all whores are sacred whores, from one perspective. Then there are those who define themselves as sacred whores. I was introduced to the Goddess through feminism about 20 years ago. I think my spirituality and belief systems are pretty idiosyncratic, and some might say essentialist.
As a hippie in the '60s, I was an earth mother, and since then I have embraced a vision of peace and compassion I associate with being female and nurturing. I know all sorts of feminists invoked all sorts of goddesses, and warrior goddesses were in vogue. Actually, Hecate, the goddess of the crossroads, was my special friend, because I was always on the edge... which is always a sort of crossroads. Now Squat (goddess of parking, finding one's place, etc.) is my favorite.
SS: How did you become and how long have you been a whore?
SH: I started working 18 years ago, and I still see regular clients. I've worked in a variety of ways, through parlors, phone ads, bars and in a group with other women, exchanging clients. Now I do outreach on the street to women, although I hadn't worked on the streets.
SS: How did you come to the Craft and service of the Goddess?
SH: I was introduced by an anti-porn activist, Marcia Womangold, in around 1973. She embraced a variety of nonmainstream types of feminism. I met her in a women's writing group I founded in Boston.
Also part of the group was Hima, a stripper and poet as well. She was also a pagan and came to her service to the Goddess through (what some of us now call) sex work.
SS: Have you always considered prostitution a sacred profession?
SH: I embraced and invoked the Goddess before becoming a prostitute. When I started working, one of the first things I did was organize a circle among my whore friends, pledging our work to the Goddess.
SS: Does sacred whoredom always involve charging money for sex?
SH: Good question! There are sexual healers who don't receive monetary compensation, who identify as sacred whores in some way. I believe in accepting people's self-definitions, and anyway, if a person wants to call themselves a whore, I say, welcome, sister (and brother, for that matter).
SS: Does the sex always ring true as a divine act, or does it sometimes fall flat?
SH: I remember reading an old text (maybe ancient Greek?) in which a writer was complaining that the supposedly sacred temples were mostly really very secular and involved "just plain ole whoring." What is a divine act, anyway? Some say to the Goddess, all acts of pleasure are sacred.
SS: What elements need to be present to have sex as a sacred act? What about sex for money?
SH: As you see, I have a broad definition of sacred. For me, sex that contributes to healing and pleasure of the individuals, as well as peace in the world, is the most sacred.
SS: Have you been happy in you profession? What has it done for you personally?
SH: I love the whoring in many ways! I mostly like the issues and the politics, and the power of the imagery - whores, lacy underwear, leather whips. I like the secretive air around the trade. I love sex money, making money from sex. That has a positive magic to it we haven't explored much during these times. It's about the many kinds of power that sex has, as a mirror of our psyche, as a way to get by when there is no other way, and more and more. This might be kind of "essentialist," as some say these days, but to me respect for sex means respect for women, because women are the source of some creative aspects of sexuality (childbirth). To reject sex, sexual power, through censorship, through stigmatization of sexual survival and spiritual sexual practices - according to my beliefs, that rejection will accompany rejection of women's power. Acknowledgment of sexual healing and power is part of my spirituality. At the center of my spirituality is a desire to increase the compassion on the planet, which means awakening the Goddess.
SS: One of the things people use when they argue against prostitution is that women are forced into it or exploited; can you speak to that?
SH: They usually are both, more or less. Force and choice are a continuum. I am forced to work basically at any job, and exploited, for that matter. I think whores are more forced and exploited than others. We need more respect, people advocating for our rights, etc.
Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a Utopia where every act was a matter of choice? I guess some people can create it for themselves, and perhaps that is a way their sexuality expresses itself. The most problematic prostitution comes with industrialized poverty and imperialism. Will we ever see an end to the social conditions in which a very large percentage of the planet is exploited and oppressed for the benefit of a very small portion? As Americans, many of us are on the receiving end.
The solutions to forced and exploitative prostitution have everything to do with economic equity. Some people use the suffering of those who are working and existing in these conditions as an indictment against the sex-for-money-trade. As Cherly Overs, an Australian sex worker from the Network of Sexwork Projects, says: "The persecution of sex workers is inexorably linked with the idea that sexual services should not be sold. Churches and other conservative institutions who have always held this view have been joined in recent years by feminists who argue that prostitution should be abolished because it is inherently exploitative. Sex workers are seen as victims who are 'forced' into prostitution either by violent coercion or economic circumstances.
"To sustain these ideas involves dismissing the voices of prostitutes, or listening only to those whose experience and perceptions fit the idea that commercial sex is abusive." (The sex workers' movement emphasizes political participation of both current sex workers and former workers, not just those who will renounce the work, by the way.) My point is, there is a growing movement of sex workers who identify as pagans, witches, devotees of the Goddess, etc., who question the basic concepts that stigmatize the sex-for-money exchange, perhaps in that they are the baggage of a civilization that has been formulated to reduce women's power, to overthrow the Goddess.
SS: How do you see yourself in relationship to the Craft or Goddess communities?
SH: I am part of a circle of male and female sex workers in the Bay Area. I hope to expand this part of my life, and I hope one day to be part of a powerful circle of sex workers, a church of sorts, supported by sex work, and supporting sex workers, particularly many who I see all the time who are forced into this work. I admire the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, and the charity work they do, and I am interested in developing a spiritual group with an emphasis like that, art and charity.
SS: Have you had any problems with discrimination from the Craft or Goddess communities?
SH: I am not one to say, because I haven't put myself out there very much. I know many pagan-identified whores who tell me they aren't out in the pagan community because people judge them, and they would be rejected. This may be changing to some extent, and it's good to acknowledge that, but from what I see, it would be hard to be a whore in many pagan communities. My advice to nonwhores is never assume the person you are talking to isn't a sex worker. This way, you will be less likely to say something that would make us feel marginalized. We are still in the closet to a great extent. It's a touchy issue, and a person has to be pretty educated about sex workers' perspectives to know what can be insulting. Here is an example: "I support sex workers, but not sex work."
SS: What would you say are the negative aspects of the "oldest profession"?
SH: The stigma and alienation. Really not wanting to but having to do it to support a drug habit because drugs are illegal. (Not all users who work feel this way, but some do.) The laws make it almost impossible to really protect ourselves from rape, and violence. Obviously, literally forced prostitution is part of the most negative aspects. In terms of negative aspects of my day-to-day work... one needs to be strong and assertive, and I'm not always that strong or assertive. Generally, clients are either nice or neutral, but the exceptions are annoying - not to mention the sociopaths.
I wish whores were respected for the service we provide. Some of my clients act like I do this because I'm just horny, not acknowledging that I am a professional. They pressure me to tell them how much I like the sex with them. (And it's not like I don't respond. I do, a lot.) It's like they are confused about my motivations. If sex work was respected, I think the clients wouldn't bring all this guilt and confusion into the sessions. It could be better for both of us.
SS: What would you say are the positive aspects of the sex industry?
SH: Money. Inspiration for my art. Having a job that involves human interaction as opposed to factory work. I like working lying down in bed in pretty underwear. When I worked a lot, much of the work was on the phone, arranging dates. Now I see regulars, so most of my work is really in bed.
It's kind of a fun way to make money for me. But I did get kind of bored with it after 18 years. I love it as a part-time way to have a bit of odd sex and make pocket money, but I remember before I found another way to make money, I was getting very tired of the work, and I was really worried that I wouldn't find another niche.
In terms of spiritual practices within prostitution, I am definitely not well-versed in spiritual sexual practices, as are some of the whores in the book Women of the Light, for example. I offer accepting, affectionate, loving energy, and it ties in with my dedication to increase these qualities in the world, but I'm not exactly a shamanatrix, like Debbie Moore, for example. My dedication to the Goddess has always had a political orientation, so as a holy whore, I see myself as a builder of the church rather than as a healer - although I do practice a variety of healing arts.
SS: Can modern women utilize this aspect of the Goddess to reclaim their sexuality and power?
SH: Loving the Goddess meant learning to love myself in a way I never could without Her.
SS: How about the males role in all of this?
SH: Men as clients? This is a long story, but when I think about the best gender relationships, the first thing I toss out is the compulsory heterosexual nuclear family. Of course, it works for some people very well, and I think they are lucky that it does, given the prejudices in the world. But it seems like it's an impossible model for about 80 percent of the population.
That's why it drives me crazy - because it really works for so few. I associate this compulsory pairing with the patriarchal goal of patrilineal inheritance. But without this institution of compulsory pairing, in which other sexual options are stigmatized and criminalized, what kind of relationships would men and women have? What role would prostitution have? How would women be supported while and for raising children, and how would men contribute? Feminist-"moralist" critiques of prostitution may acknowledge (something cut off or missing)
SS: How can today's man learn to embrace the sacred whore, rather than fear and revile her? How about the sacred whore in him?
SH: He can give me money! Just kidding. But not really.
Anyway, if he wants to love whores he can keep a little Goddess statue by his bedside. Or he can dress like a girl. Or he can even watch reruns of Bewitched. He can masturbate and think of the Beautiful Goddess and her Wondrous Vulva while he does.
SS: Are there any other ways to use this energy other than becoming a sacred prostitute?
SH: When one even uses the energy at all, she or he might be called a sacred prostitute - ?
I think we can take the role with our partners, any gender, any combination. Most people have sex in a very ordinary model, kind of like in the porn movies. Most people are afraid to really regard, look at or change their practices at all. It's nice, though, just to light candles first and invoke the Goddess. Or gods and goddesses. Dedicate your sexual encounter to a purpose. More structure can be nice occasionally.
Sensate focus is good, and massage. Find a good sex teacher (a.k.a. sacred prostitute).
SS: What exactly do you think is the problem for most people with prostitution? Is it that people are having sex? Or that money is being made? What part of those things is bad? We don't think it's bad to spend money for anything else, or to have sex in other instances; why does it suddenly become bad when put together?
SH: I don't know either, although I think about it. Perhaps the taboo around prostitution is one of the pivotal taboos that structure our civilization - perhaps, as I suggested earlier, because it's another way to make sure there is a mandatory system for patrilineage.
I think prostitution is probably one of the main alternatives to marriage/coupling in terms of sexual relations between men and women. Without mandatory marriage including all other options being cut off, especially the most obvious ones, we would have no patriarchy.
And why are some feminists so against it? Once we are fighting for the crumbs of self-determination in this patriarchy, then the nonwhores are pitted against the whores, who seem like competition. It is true, I think, that all the beautiful women in magazines who show their pussies do place women who don't support themselves through sex at a disadvantage. Since women are pitted against each other, it's hard to rise above it.
SS: Do you think prostitution should be legalized? How would that look? What might it accomplish?
SH: The image of police arresting prostitutes has always seemed like a symbol of the worst aspects of society. Now they have criminalized it, some prostitutes feel like they don't want to change things for various reasons, sometimes because one develops one's skills to work in a certain system, so one has to start from square one if they start changing the rules.
Some say the prices would go down, but on the other hand, one could earn more because one wouldn't spend half the energy dodging the police in one way or another. It evens out.
The women sure make more in Nevada - on a weekly basis, though perhaps not per trick - than people can make in illegal contexts, mostly because it's just harder to get the business when it's illegal. The call girls here I know who worked in Nevada say it's harder to make money here. The Nevada brothels are a bad system of legalization, however, where the pros' rights are unconstitutionally limited. Decriminalization is preferable.
In terms of regulation, labor codes and OSHA work well, and standard business codes, as opposed to the intensive controls governments often put on prostitution when they "legalize" it.
SS: Do you have any suggestions on how the people out there reading this can begin to make changes for themselves and our world in the area of sexuality and power?
SH: I hope people will organize circles for sex workers with the goal of making money and sharing it with others. Of course, at the same time people will have to work on making this legal.
I suggest working with attorneys on constitutional challenges to criminalization of sex work, including sex-for-donation rituals that we need to fund our temples. I think this would be a new direction, at least for contemporary society.
I think it's important to reclaim the prostitute's role as healer, and organizations dedicated to helping those in less fortunate situations seem like a good way to do it. C'mon, all you WHOGs (Whores with Hearts of Gold)! I know you're out there!
SS: Any last comments or any wisdom you'd like to impart?
SH: People might not know about my videos, new feminist porn and great for vulva worshippers. They can get the info at my Web site. Also, I would like people to visit my Web site at http://www.creative.net/~penet/ and write me a note when they get there. They might even want to join my club, FLOP, Friends and Lovers of Prostitutes. They get a membership card, a photo of me with no shirt on and my book of poetry if they do. Send $10 and a note saying you are over 18 to: Reality Productions, P.O. Box 210256, San Francisco, CA 94121.
On the Web, locate Carol Leigh Prostitutes' Education Network at:
http://www.creative.net/~penet/
or send her e-mail at penet@creative.net
If you wish to contact COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics), a sex-worker rights organization, you can call the national office at (415) 292-2450 or the new Seattle chapter at (206) 869-9245.
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