interview
by LaSara FireFox
Oberon and Morning Glory have been in my life since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. I lived with my parents and five siblings out on the far-reaches of Greenfield Ranch, the nearly-mythical land of Annwfyn and Coiden Bryth, where Morning Glory (MG) and Oberon raised unicorns, lived close to the earth, and built a community of like-minded souls under the banner of the first incorporated pagan church -- the Church of All Worlds.
As opposed to some of the more reticent back-to-the-landers, my parents warmed to the wild pagans who had come in from the city. They were pulled by a religion that recognized magick as real, and the earth as the living goddess that she is.
Oberon and MG are part of the composite memories that make up my early childhood; abundant meals from the garden followed by stories told by kerosene-lamp light while we sat clustered around the fire; rain-soaked walks to visit for a day or three; goat herding; and home-school history lessons that imbued me with a sense of possibility, chance and mystery. MG and Oberon were both teachers to me over the years in their ways, and Oberon and I to this day call one another by the affectionate titles of uncle and niece.
In 1999, after many years of study, I was ordained by the Church of All Worlds. It is the only second-generation ordination in the history of the Church (my mother is ordained as well). I also served in roles of leadership within the organization. While the church fell on hard times, and finally more or less disbanded, ties of family didn't break as easily.
Here I offer a glimpse into two generations of our movement.
LaSara: What is the most impactful decision you've made in the movement, either on a personal level or on a social level? Morning Glory?
Morning Glory: On the larger-scope level, I think the most impactful decision I've made was early in my career, and was to foster and promote the names Witch and pagan in order to let the world know there was a different path, and to defend the use of those words.
When you identify with words that have a larger negative connotation in society, you are kind of dooming the people who think it's a good idea and get involved with you to belonging to a movement that is, in fact, radical as far as most people are concerned; and consequently it's a strong uphill battle.
If we had called ourselves something a little more neutral like "earth religion" or "pantheist"...there were many other words we could have used to define what we are, but by using two hot-button words -- witch and pagan -- we aligned ourselves with the revolution.
The movement has grown because the reason behind the decision to pick those radical terms was that the world was ready for a radical solution. Oberon and I have always been kind of the extreme radical wing of the old left-wing school of the pagan movement. We're the ones that won't change and won't back down and won't mellow with age. We feel that what's wrong with the world right now is the enormous number of people identifying with a really toxic, power-over mythology that disempowers women, disempowers people of color and disempowers the earth herself; and that the only solution to that is to walk away from that toxic mythology and embrace a different mythology -- one that is radical and revolutionary.
Oberon: Can I add a little to that? The crucial decision in 1967 to go public as the Church of All Worlds was tied directly to what Morning Glory just said. When we came out in public and called ourselves a church, I was immediately confronted. People asked, "What kind of church is this? What is your denomination or affiliation? Are you a Christian church or what are you?" At that point I said, "Well, we're pagans." This seems to have been historically the first time that anybody had adopted the term for self-identification. Prior to that time the term, of course, had been used to refer to someone else -- those pagans, never us pagans.
A transformation of consciousness occurs when you have a name by which you can call yourself. It is the essence of the magick of humans and the people who make new discoveries like a new comet or star or dinosaur. Being able to name a concept or make an identification is very powerful magick, indeed; and that really did change the world. I think that's possibly the biggest magick I've ever been involved in, in that sense.
L: Oberon, why start a church that came from the brain of a writer ostensibly, rather than start from scratch with your own ideas or from some aspect of mythology?
O: I'm not sure there's a clear separation of any of those factors. Mythology...one's own ideas...visions and writing...there's a continuum there. From the earliest times, writers have created concepts and stories in literature that have provided models. Examining the ways in which a society might be better has always been a fundamental aspect of the purpose of telling [stories]. How could an ideal society come about? What would it look like? And what could happen to bring such a thing down?
Science fiction is simply future mythology. The reason why this stuff has such a resonance is that it touches things deep in our heart. There is a core essential myth in the depth of all human psyche that once upon a time, all things were better. I think we have that in our hearts. We are stardust. We are golden. We are billion year old carbon, and we have to get back to the garden. That is so deep and so universal. Heinlein understood all that stuff very well.
The reason for starting the church -- as opposed to simply adopting a set of beliefs and a spiritual practice -- is much more concrete and also something that Heinlein specified in [Stranger in a Strange Land] -- it allows you to do things in a legal structure. If you have a church you can create schools, own property, ordain clergy, perform marriages, go into prisons, administer rites to people. You have enormous freedom as an institutional church. Freedom that unfortunately -- throughout the history of the Church of All Worlds -- most people never seemed to have grokked. We were never able to do any of that stuff, even though it was the entire purpose of having a church in the first place.
L: What are a couple of the blessings and curses of starting a church that ostensibly was based in science fiction?
O: I guess one of the blessings was a certain freedom from tradition. We were much more able to make it up as we went along than anybody who was claiming to resurrect the rites of ancient Egypt or Greece. That was enormously powerful.
Of course, the future orientation is really great. If you're basing things on a future mythology, you definitely have the sense that you're creating your reality rather than trying to recreate someone else's.
L: That's a good point. And the curses?
O: Early on, the most difficult thing was not being taken seriously by people and actually being sneered at by some of them. We were often dismissed as a "science fiction grok flock."
In a sense, that wasn't such a terrible curse. It allowed us the freedom from being under anyone else's judgmental structure because we didn't have to live up to anyone else's expectations. They might not have liked us, but they also didn't have any say about us.
L: From your perspective, what are some of the flawed elements of the movement?
O: Ooh. That's a tough question. I think it's that essentially human and animal nature have some built in problems. Throughout the history of evolution, every creature has sought its own advantage over others, and human civilization has evolved trying to find a way to compensate for that natural tendency by creating systems and institutions in which people are capable of working for a common good instead of their own personal advantage. But it's a tough because at heart, that's what most people actually want.
L: What is what most people want?
O: They want their own personal advantage over others. They want privilege as a private lot -- personal advantage. This has led to devastating tragedies throughout human history, but it's not any different than in any animal species, where every individual is trying to push itself to the forefront, to disadvantage others and advantage itself. I think in many ways the pagan community has addressed these issues better than many other communities, but it is a constant problem, insofar as the pagan community has developed a sense of valuing consensus and rejected the hierarchical follow-the-leader type thing.
L: I have a question about that specifically too, which was not in my original list of questions. I want to add it in because I think it's a curious one. Having served in positions of leadership myself in the pagan community and having been in the same seat you've been in, it's not very comfortable to be in when you're in it, right? We have a cultural belief in the pagan movement that we are anti-authoritarian.
M: Right.
L: Yet, we aren't [anti-authoritarian]. And it's questionable whether it's human nature or nature-nature or animal-nature or whether it's just something that's so deeply ingrained that we haven't figured out how to get our heads around other options. In some way I think our cultural belief that we are anti-authoritarian and non-hierarchical has led to some of the trouble we've had recognizing our leaders as leaders.
O: Yup.
L: When someone is in a position of leadership in a movement, and at the same time we as a culture believe we have no leaders, on a cultural level it creates some kind of identity conflict perhaps, that allows huge amounts of abuse to be heaped upon those who take the most responsibility for the movement.
O: Precisely. Our conceptual language fails to distinguish between the word authority and the word authoritarian or authoritative. We seem to gravitate towards a concept of the word authority that means authoritarian, which must be rebelled against, defied and overthrown. We are utterly incapable of comprehending the concept of authoritative so we can respect someone for their knowledge, wisdom, skill, responsibility and so on.
L: If you take it to another level and say in a truly anti-authoritarian movement, those who took the action would make the decisions...in a sense, it wouldn't become such a community issue. I think a lot of the conflict that we've had on a cultural level within the movement has to do with this conflict between the idea of what we are, and what we are actually capable of.
O: Precisely. I have always held to the notion that someone who initiates and creates something is automatically in charge of it. Those who don't create have a different attitude. Their idea is if someone creates something it can be taken away from them. It's the difference between the villagers in the old days who would settle down and farm and blacksmith and make all kinds of things, verses the raiders who would simply come in and burn the village. We have always had that confrontation throughout history.
There is something very bizarre in that [an anti-authoritarian] attitude that leaves a kind of vacuum in which someone who is strongly authoritarian can just walk in and clean up the place; and we are never prepared for them. You know the Druids who invited St. Patrick to come in had this idea, "Oh, sure, you have some new teachings...new god...new religion, no problem. We'll just make a place for you over here and you can set up your little church here, that's fine...welcome to the crowd." But they could not comprehend the idea that such a person would come in and want to banish, outlaw and persecute the rest of them.
L: I hear that. I'm curious as to whether either of you have any ideas about how we might confront these issues in the long term, because they're still issues, and the result for a lot of us who were raised in the movement has been leaving the movement, if not the religion.
M: Ultimately, we're dealing with something that is hardwired into all social animals -- dominance hierarchy. We can try to ameliorate it. We can try to create social systems that make it not such a "do or die" kind of thing. We can translate the competition into play. There are a lot of ways we can affect that [impulse], but we can't deny that it exists, and we can't renounce it and then believe it's done because we've turned our back on it. If you turn your back on a thing it will rise up and bite you on the butt every time.
We can look into the places where we are practicing the dominant hierarchy in a painful and hurtful way with others. We can try to purge that behavior and to teach about the purging of that behavior and to shout it from the rooftops if necessary.
L: I've seen it often in the movement. People have a bad reaction to anyone standing up and getting noticed, even if the person complaining is powerless to offer a better solution.
M: People refer to this as the Tall Poppy Syndrome. If one poppy sticks up higher than the rest, somebody comes along and cuts it down. And I think that democracy suffers from the same problem; as does the liberal movement and the progressive movement. We all have this underdog mentality. There is this whole underdog psychology that involves tearing down anything that sticks up higher.
We can't just take the path of tearing down. We have to take a more balanced approach. We have to support and promote the people who are best slated for the task they are doing -- as opposed to trying to make everything done by collective decision. That's a disaster.
L: What are some of the trends or elements that differentiate paganism now from paganism ten or fifteen years ago?
O: I'd say the most important development in the evolution of the pagan movement has been that it has moved from being an adults-only secret society, to a more family, multi-generational, tribal community. That's incredibly significant.
M: I would like to add that the face-to-face contact that festivals have brought. I think that the festival movement has really contributed to the explosion and the popularity of the movement. The other good side of it is that it tends to diffuse a lot of the Witch wars -- you know -- "My trad is holier than your trad." It's not that they don't still occur, but when people are actually looking at each other face to face, it makes it a lot harder to carry a grudge.
Another thing was the explosion of the Internet and the involvement of Internet covens. People are meeting each other from all over the world and are no longer bound by their region. The only hitch is that the online thing -- because you are not face to face with people -- can foster a lot of flame wars. I think a combination of the online thing and the festival thing together are kind of a check and balance.
L: After all the pain and joy of the past 40-plus years, what keeps you going?
M: Well, my faith keeps me going, and the wonder of each and every day unfolding in some amazing way; that the gods and goddesses of this wonderful universe have various surprise packages hidden in places where I least expect them. Another thing that keeps me going is a sense of duty and vision...I know I'm working for something bigger that will change the world in time.
L: Who inspires you now?
M: I'm inspired by a lot of people. I'm always inspired by Oberon -- from the moment I met him. I'm inspired by my mother, a Christian lady who is 88 years old. She keeps on going through pain and suffering, and laughs and is funny and makes jokes, and in general has a terrific attitude about life. I didn't learn a lot about Christianity, but I learned through my mother that regardless of your faith or your orientation, your personal attitude is going to determine where you take your life and how well you will serve the purpose that divinity has given to you.
L: Oberon, after all the pain and joy of the past 40-plus years, what keeps you going? Who inspires you? And what are you working on now?
O: What has kept me going all this time is the matrix of people that I live in -- the community of people that are my friends, people I know, and people I've been connected with for all these many years -- yourself, for example. Certainly Morning Glory; our 32 years together continue to be a wonderful inspiration all the time.
And then there's all the people I haven't actually met with who let me know -- when they meet me somewhere, or write to me, or e-mail me --that something I've done or written has meant something to them, or has changed or saved their life.
So, it's that sense that I am of use and service and recognized and appreciated and needed in the world. That is a very important motivation to me. If I ever felt that I was of no more use or was no more needed, that would be pretty hard to take -- I would feel in some sense that my life was over.
All those who are ahead of me also inspire me, of course. The people whose books I admire. These days my favorite author is Terry Pratchett, and I eagerly look forward to each new book of his. I'm currently reading a book by Deepak Chopra that's just wonderful. I love movies...I love going on adventures...I love hanging around to see the surprises around the next corner. That whole Star Trek thing, "To Seek Out New Life and New Civilizations and Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before," has always been a powerful motivation for me.
What am I working on now? My biggest project is the Grey School of Wizardry, online at www.greyschool.com. It was an outgrowth of the Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard; I wanted to be able to turn the readers on to a place where they could go online for more stuff and I found there simply wasn't anything. The only online schools of magickal things I found were all Witchcraft, and none of them admitted people under 18...so I realized this was an assignment.
That's a major part of my life, getting these "mission impossible" assignments from the Goddess, where I'll see something and say "Uh-oh, this is a job for me!" My life has been directed by that. I know the secret to that one -you never say "No" until they hang up because then the phone booth self-destructs and they cancel your show. There's no point in that. You might as well just give it up right at the beginning and say, "OK, what have you got for me next?" It doesn't do any good to ask "Why me?" -- Because you were chosen.
I'm also working on the next book right now, which is the companion to the Grimoire for the Apprentice Wizard, due in the next couple of months. I also have a contract I'm about to sign for a book of ceremonies based on the Home Cooking Rites and Rituals book that I developed out of the material Morning Glory and I have been compiling for decades.
It's a very exciting time in our lives.
L: Is there any chance that we'll see the Church of All Worlds miraculously come back to life?
O: Yep, there is...definitely. Right now we are securing a legal foundation, we've re-upped our registration in the state of California; we're getting all the pieces in place. We've precipitated our resurrection.
LaSara Firefox is a writer, ritualist, sex-positive activist and educator, and a designer/facilitator of a wide variety of interactive, exploration-based workshops. She lives in northern California and tours the West Coast extensively. LaSara is a family-traditions witch, second-generation ordained pagan priestess, an initiate of three traditions, and a student of many others. Her first book, Sexy Witch [Llewellyn Worldwide], hits the shelves Sept. 2005. LaSara's next tour of the Great Northwest will take place in Nov. 2005. For more info, visit www.lasara.us.
Copyright © 2006 by the article's author